Is there anyone Jewish here who likes Wagner and/or an avid fan of Wagner and his works?

Question

Just wondering.

I'm not Jewish btw but I don't mean to stir a catfight and/or insult anyone here. I'm sorry if my questions offend many people here. I'm just simply asking. That's all.

If you do, then what is your fave piece/opera/composition from him? How do you view him overall, as a musician and for his political view? And does it bother you that Wagner was the source of inspiration for Hitler? Eventhough he was long gone before the Nazi era, but some people still tie him with the Nazi because Hitler was a huge fan of Wagner and many of Wagner's work pretty much inspired him for his basis on the Nazi and holocaust.

Answer 1

I'm not Jewish (I'm not ANYTHING!) but this is an interesting question. As you probably know, Wagner's music was banned in Israel until very recently because of his anti-semite views. Interesting that the conductor who finally ended this tradition was himself a Jew - Daniel Barenboim). However, as I have said before when answering another question a few months ago, Wagner's anti-semitism was not so unusual in 19th-century Europe. He was not a lone voice by any means. This is not to excuse it in any way, merely to point out that Wagner was not some kind of monster (well, yes, he was a monster of a person, but that's another thing) in this particular regard.



It is interesting that Wagner was singled out by the Israelites; Chopin was well-known for his strong anti-semitic views but his music was never banned in Israel. Perhaps 'pretty' music by an anti-semite is easier to swallow? Carl Orff's music was not banned by the Israelites either - yet he complied with the Nazis both by writing 'Carmina Burana' at Hiltler's bequest and by agreeing to write music to 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' to replace that by Mendelssohn banned by the Nazis. Yet, Carl Orff seems to have been forgiven and 'Carmina Burana' has been performed many times in Israel. It is one of the most popular pieces of all classical music. Richard Strauss is another composer who has been accused of complying with the Nazis, yet you have to remember that in 1933, when the Nazis took power (elected in, don't forget), he was already an old man of nearly 70 years. He actually refused the job of re-writing 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' that Orff later accepted. Strauss is played in Israel. It is also easy to criticise people for apparently complying with totalitarian régimes if one has never lived under one. One must also remember, of course, that Wagner died in 1883, many years before the birth of the Nazi party, and so any inspiration they might have gained by Hiltler and his cronies from Wagner's very Teutonic music could hardly be held responsible for that!



I think it is important to separate religious politics from art. If we were to ban the music of composers who were unsavoury in any way, we would lose half the repertoire (Beethoven was an unpleasant slob, Lully, a predatory homosexual; Britten, a thoroughly unpleasant man with an obsession with young boys; Stradella, a serial womaniser of other men's wives, etc etc).



I hope you won't mind my secular, socialist view being expressed.



PS - don't worry about offending anyone (why would this question offend anyone?) - no-one ever died of being offended! Some people make a vocation out of 'being offended'. Best not to pander to them.

Answer 2

"Bravo" del_i_cio: very well said.



What can one possibly add to such an impressive exposition?



Perhaps something meaningful, by way of relating my own personal experiences with a Jewish individual who was also a classic music lover; and though not as avid a fan of Wagner's music as I am, nevertheless loved and much appreciated his music.



And I should add at this point, he was the best friend that I ever had; our association has lasted for well over 30 years now; and though we rarely ever have direct contact anymore, we still keep in touch.



Even though he was only Jewish by birth and had been reared in that religion, he wasn't what you would call a practicing jew: never went to the synagogue anymore nor observed any Judaism's tenants.



And I may be attributing my sentiments to him; but he felt that Wagner had been given a very bad rap not only in Israel but throughout the world, because of the Nazi's and Hitler's adoption of him as their ideal German creative artist.



And I would contest the statement that "many of Wagner's work(s) pretty much inspired him(Hitler)for his basis on Nazi and holocaust". That's utterly absurd - ridiculous in the extreme.



The whole thrust of the most "noble" characters in the Ring, is to accept responsibility for ones actions, and not to blame others: one needs to study Brunnhilde's pronouncements in the Immolation scene, for this to be understood as the ultimate lesson of this great tragedy.



Alberich

Answer 3

My kids are Jewish, they live in a Jewish town and I coached their soccer team about 1/4 of which was Jewish - but Ride of the Valkyries was on our mix tape, and it's on my daughter's pre-game warm-up tape. The idea was to get that feeling from the helicopter scene in Apocalypse Now. We went 19-1, winning our last 18 in a row. I still use the song - my record coaching my daughter's teams is 29 wins, 3 losses and 4 draws. It's obviously the goalkeeping more than the music, but the music helps.

Answer 4

Wagner was a man of his time; a time when most men disdained Jews.

leaving the Ring to one side my favourite work is Lohengrin.



I find it interesting that few people revile Richard Strauss in the same way, and yet he composed for the Nazis.

Answer 5

Wagner? My favorite composition by him is Tristan und Isolde...I think. There are a couple in mind, but this one sticks out in my mind because that was one of the first operas I was exposed to as a teen that blew me away. As a person, Wagner was alot of things...not just a racist. One of my favorite composers of all time is Brahms. Wagner turned his nose up on Brahms, and so I have issues with Wagner on that principle alone. LOL! If it didn't act, behave, or smell like Wagner, Wagner felt or "pretended" it was inferior.



Hitler, however, was a manipulator. He used Wagner as a tool to manipulate the masses with no backbone to stand up against him. The fact that people believe Wagner was the reason Hitler was a racists is hilarious to me, because Hitler already had his views set that way WITHOUT Wagner's help. He used Wagner to boost his support, and people were dumb enough to fall for it in his country. Hitler was an jack@#$ and didn't need Wagner's help to guide his views. Its kind of like someone using a Celebrity to gather support behind a cause. Its sad he used Wagner's name this way, because although Wagner was a jerk at times, he never spreaded a message to kill Jewish people. He, in my opinion, was in fear of Jewish people having a handle on things in his country. He didn't want them as a whole "taking over". His was more of an insecurity instead of pure hate. Mendelssohn was pretty screwed over because of Wagner, but his music was still admired. I think there might have been a little jealousy coming from Wagner from that angle. Mendelssohn was a talented composer. Maybe Wagner was just upset because he was a scruffy looking something, LOL! Who knows.



I think people read more into Wagner than what it is. It's no excuse for his silly behavior, but he in no way was the same monster as Hitler. Even Wagner would turn over in his grave if he knew Hitler used his music as a backdrop to kill human beings. I just think Wagner was sort of a jerk in general. Schubert of that time was getting flack by Wagner and others too...not because his music wasn't wonderful. But it was looked at as "feminine" becuase people thought he was homosexual (I am sure he was). However, he was picked on like Mendelssohn was because of his sexual preference.



Like someone else stated, composers had issues too. I still defend Beethoven's behavior, although he was nutty. But I would be nutty too if I came from his background everyone wanted something from him. Mozart was a "pimp" (lol) and was obsessed by women. Lully indeed was a child molester of boys as del_ said, so some of the most famous composers are the most conflicted ones.



But they are human. They're flawed and looked under a microscope. I think Wagner made bad choices in life, but God gave him that gift to be responsible with it. It is up to us to be responsible with our gifts, because if we aren't people will use us an excuse to be ugly to others. That's how dumb the masses can be. One person with a small opinion or action can be used as an excuse for everyone else to think ignorant. Look at how one celeb move can cause a bunch of people to act or be stupid. I am so glad Hanna Montana didn't come out like Britney did in the 90's. I would have to look at 10 year olds wearing hoochie shirts and push up bras again while their parents blindly walk around with them like its ok. ROTFL! Is it completely the celeb's fault, no. But we have to be responsible. Even I as a parent and a performer have to be careful how I carry myself in public. I represent so much to people, even if I am not famous, when I get on the stage or walk into a PTA meeting. You'll be surprised how one person could cause others to think one way or another.

Answer 6

I understand that the wedding march from Lohengrin is customarily played at Jewish weddings as well as Christian weddings.



Myself, I can forgive Kurt Weill for being a Communist, but I sometimes have trouble forgiving Prokofieff for composing a hymn in honor of Stalin.